Possible rule changes? July 2008

[Maya]

I'm currently redoing the BITS Rules & Regulations as I'm working on the new site, and I think it's come time to review them. I want everyone's input in regard to the following suggestions, and if anyone has any additional suggestions, please put them forward for discussion as well!

Once everyone's had their say, the Admin Team will discuss and make final decisions.

Proposed Changes

[x] Take away stable opening wait time -- allow new members to open stables immediately.
[x] Breeding -- remove gestation period and allow mares to be bred/foal at any time
[x] Allow speedaging -- only once in a horse's lifetime


Changes that have been made, effective immediately

[x] "all created or imported horses be assigned (at least) a sire, dam, and dam's sire."
[x] "All horses must be housed at a stable within the game at all times. A one month grace period is extended to new members in the process of opening their own stable or those seeking a boarding facility."
[x] "All horses must retire and/or die between the ages of 25 and 35. No horse may be bred past the age of 25."
[x] "Only one foal per mare can be registered each year, excepting cases where an embryo transfer has taken place. In these situations, mares may have a maximum of three foals registered in one year. Note that embryo transfers may only occur in breeds allowing them in real life."
[x] "Members may import as many horses as they wish to and are capable of caring for. All imported horses must follow the standards of realism expected of created and bred horses, and must exist somewhere in SIM prior to importation, be it in another game or in All-Sim. Suitable proof of this must be provided if requested."
[x] "Out-of-game showrecords are permitted, but must be clearly labelled as such. Horses within BITS cannot exist in any other games, but can freely participate in All-Sim activities provided that, again, all resulting achievements are labelled as such. Out-of-game showrecords will not be automatically added to the results database by the Administrators, but members who wish to have these results included can submit them using" the apropriate template (to come).
[x] "Horses may be exported from BITS if requested by the original owner (the member who created, imported, or bred the horse), or by a previous owner outside of the game who has a legitimate reason to do so. All exportation requests must be submitted to The Administrative Team using" the appropriate form (to come).
[x] "New members begin the game with 5 creation credits upon joining, and are awarded 5 more upon opening a stable, and an additional 5 on January 1st of each year."
[x] "All show results must be in the appropriate spreadsheet format, and must either be emailed in to the Showrecords Administrator or linked to from the results post on the show results forum."
[x] "Upon receiving approval, members will be paid $10,000.00 for each successful establishment."
[x] "All stables or other establishments housing horses must purchase facilities prior to submission for approval. Stables may offer boarding at the owner's discretion, and must always have enough room to accomodate all currently housed horses. Members who cannot immediately afford to purchase facilities may request a loan."
[x] "All establishments must have an up-to-date website displaying, at minimum, basic information about the establishment, contact information, and a listing of current assets (ie facilities, land, horses)."

Discuss!!

[Elise]

I like the effective immediately rule changes, and I also think the proposed changes are good too.

I like the speed aging, although could we do de-aging if the horse has no offspring?

I LOVE the gestation period change idea. I don't have that many mares, so as much as I would like to breed them, I would also like to show them, and you can't show a pregnant mare. Personally, I would like to get my mares a good show record before I bred them, so then I know whether or not she is worthy to be bred, instead of ending up with a so-so foal kind of like in RL, if you guys get my drift...

I'm kind of on a tight schedule, I have to be at the barn in a little over 8 hours from now, so I don't have much time on the computer but I will talk more about this when I get back from the clinic though for sure

[Gwen]

I am completely against speed aging and instant foaling. Period. I LIKE the realism. For my purposes with the BSBR, it would be nearly impossible to hold shows that meant anything that way.

[Gwen]

Oh, and I like the other new rules. All good changes I think, but I stand by my original comments.

[Maya]

If 'instant foaling' was introduced, mares would still only be able to have one foal per year... would that make a difference for the BSBR? I'm not exactly sure how your system works, lol >.< I'm not overly keen on the idea, either, but I thought I'd put it out there and see what the general concensus was.

[Gwen]

I was confused. Now that I "get" the insta-breeding, I think that could be okay.

[Shelly]

I think you should lower the waiting time to open a barn, but not remove it. If you did that, then why would someone pay monthly wages when they could open their own barn and make money instead of loosing money? I know some are strapped for time, but if they board then they would probably still have to have some form of recorded pages and whatnot.

As for the speed aging, if it's once in their lifetime and you have limits that dont allow foals to exceed parents ages and such, then I'd be ok with it. And the instant breeding, me likey a LOT. I know waiting for my foals is a pain, and by the time foaling season rolls around I usually end up miss-placing my records or arranging breedings too late for the Thoroughbred foals to be any good until they're officially four but racing three year old <- if that makes any sense!

As for the rest of the rules, I like. They sound fair and are good. If we already have establishments, do we get paid? And the credits? Just wondering, since no one has asked yet

[Rainbow]

I like all the rule changes that have already been made.

However, I'm totally against all three of the proposed/discuss-able changes. I don't even think that our waiting time to open a stable is that unreasonable as it stands. Like Shelly said, there would be no point in having a boarding barn. Everyone would have a barn, and in real life, it's not like that. Not everyone has a fifty-stall barn with Olympic-sized arenas. Granted, it's a sim game and no one wants to play as a backyard horse owner who has two ancient Shetland ponies and never shows them -- that'd be no fun. However, I think that requiring a boarding period for new members to allow them to get into the game is necessary for the economy. I know that I personally have not had a boarder at WEC in a LONG time. All my incoming money is from shows and selling horses (something else I haven't done in a while, haha). So that's my input on that.

Speed aging is... meh. This is the one I'm least against. There would definitely have to be limits, though. I think it would also be reasonable to place limits on how many horses a member could speed age over a set time period (i.e. ten horses per year, or something). My only qualm is that it's just not realistic. I think that's something we pride ourselves on as a game, the realism that we have. This would take that away, and I'm not sure if I support that. Again, though, this is the one I'm least against.

Finally, insta-foaling... Definitely not for it. Most mares in real life are successful at either breeding or showing. If they do both, they usually show for a while and then are retired from showing to be a broodmare. Or they show lightly at small shows and are broodmares. If you want your show mare to have a foal that desperately, you can handle waiting nine months. I think insta-foaling would encourage OVER-breeding and then we'd get into population problems and too many horses/no market for horses, etc. Just because the American economy is in a recession right now does not mean that the sim game economy has to enter a recession as well, guys!

So that's my quick two cents on all those things.

[Maya]

While I totally agree with all your points, Rainbow, and I am totally for keeping the game realistic... I think we also have to look at it from the perspective of potential members. I did a lot of polling of non-members, and the top three reasons why they wouldn't join BITS were (in order) the 11 month gestation period, waiting time for stables, and speedaging. We haven't been attracting new members lately, and I think a big part of that is the newer 'fresher' games with less restricting rules.

What if there is a cost or limits on these things? Like it costs x amount of money to speedage a horse (to simulate the costs of keeping the horse for the years you are 'skipping') and you can only do it once in a horse's life time, and only for 10 horses a year? Or something along those lines. And for breeding, maybe implementing a breeding tax that you can be exempt from (or have it reduced) if you want to wait the full 11 months? I also think we would need to implement some kind of rule like once a mare has a foal, she can't show again for x amount of time or until she has had x amount of foals. And mares could still have only one foal per year. So there wouldn't be incentive to breed show mares before retirement, really.

I do agree that 1 week isn't very long to wait for a stable, though... But, since facilities are so expensive, I think that not everyone is going to open a stable right away regardless of how long the minimum wait time is.

I dunno. We seem to be losing members more quickly than we are getting new ones, and those are the major reasons why.

Also, we should probably bring up again buying feed and tack and such -- should it be mandatory? I will be developing an inventory tracker thing in the portal very soon, so it won't be too time consuming. I think it would kind of jump-start the economy in the game a bit. Right now, as Rainbow said, there aren't really ways to make money because no one uses the few businesses that are open. If people HAD to, it would incense more activity, I think.

lol I'm totally exhausted from work so I'm not sure if that made sense really

Thoughts?

[Shelly]

I think paying to speed age would be good. For the things to consider would be vet and farrier. Say you pay $1000 a year [just a figure] and you want to speed age for five years. That'd be $5,000 you had to pay. Maybe the money could go back into associations so there could be paybacks?

And I think having a breeding tax for those who must have their foal now would be a good idea, but let those who can handle the 11 month gestation be exempt or pay a lower fee. Or do something that like, for every month they dont want to wait they have to pay a certain amount, as in the cost that it would be to keep the mare that long? Say if cost for a mare is $10 a day, they'd have to pay around $300 a month. They want to skip say six months and wait five, so they'd have to pay $1800.

What we need is some money getting funded back into the associations. Well, one thing we need at least. That way, we can get paybacks at shows. I think that'd help somewhat.

Making tack/feed mandatory might turn some people off. An idea might having package deals for the larger farms, and let each package be featured by a certain tack/feed store and then the members could benefit?

What I mean is like this:

Nickerdoodle General English Package Package
Covers 10 horses for General English/All Purpose English
Includes
blah blah blah
Cost: $xxx

And then Christie would get like 75% or something and the rest would be funded back into the economy? Bigger stables would probably like that better than having to go to several different sites and collect tack for everyone. And do the same for the feed.

And with the money, like I said, maybe have some type of establishment that'll help Associations gain some money for themselves? That way there can be payback at the shows and everyone would be more interested in showing. That's the thing that keeps me with my racehorses, is I can make a lot of money from having a large string. [Ok, not the only thing but you know... lol].

Keep the pride with the realism, though!

[Rainbow]

That makes more sense now, lol. I can definitely see them helping to attract new members... perhaps we could implement each of the proposed changes one at a time, in the order that non-members pointed them out? That way it would be less drastic of a change for the current members while also still hopefully encouraging potential members to join.

I think that if we implement insta-foaling and/or speed-aging, there should be costs and limits, definitely. However, I think we also need some kind of plan as to what the funds collected will be used for... it's not clearly outlined anywhere (as far as I know) what the money earned from things like building stables, etc. goes to. That's something that would be nice to have clearly described somewhere where it's easy to locate.

My only concern with costs and/or limits is making them too complex. For example, if someone said that I can speed-age a horse only if they're less than six years old, have not had foals, have never been speed-aged, are 16.1hh or shorter, and are not a paint, plus I have to pay $651 and I cannot speed-age more than five horses a year unless I am willing to pay $5651 for any horses over that five-horse limit... no. We would need very simple regulations while still achieving our goal of regulating.

And some more comments on cutting off the wait-time for a stable... since facilities must be bought, and a new member would almost certainly need to take out a loan to build a stable (even the established members needed loans for building stables!), perhaps eliminating the wait-time would actually encourage activity... new members who chose to open stables immediately would have to raise the money somehow and thus would be more likely to host shows, open a business or association, etc. I'm playing my own devil's advocate now...

Regarding requiring members to buy feed, tack, etc. I think we should definitely bring it up again. I think, too, that with something like that, the more realistic it is, the better. Again, I don't think we can implement too many changes at once, so this is a topic for another thread and perhaps another time, but yes, I think it would be beneficial.

[Shelly]

Jul 20, 2008 15:51:37 GMT -5 Rainbow said:

My only concern with costs and/or limits is making them too complex. For example, if someone said that I can speed-age a horse only if they're less than six years old, have not had foals, have never been speed-aged, are 16.1hh or shorter, and are not a paint, plus I have to pay $651 and I cannot speed-age more than five horses a year unless I am willing to pay $5651 for any horses over that five-horse limit... no. We would need very simple regulations while still achieving our goal of regulating.

I'll stick by to what I said about the money that we could be raising. Maybe if an association proposes to a council, they can recieve money to have payback classes at their association shows, and gain more activity that way? Unless you have other plans...?

[Gwen]

Individual association will still have the ability to make their own rules. I don't care what happens, the BSBR will not be allowing speed-aging. Similar associations could do so as well. Because so many of our futurity/maturity classes are fundamental to the organization, speed aging would really hurt us.

I just am still very against it. I realize it hurts realism. That's just my opinion. It's the only one I feel really strongly about. I understand it could help the economy, but I feel like rules such as these will attract the tween crowd that is generally found on all-sim and games connected to all-sim.

I don't like all-sim, which is why I have chosen never to join. I just think when we consider these changes, we need to be very careful at what crowd we attract. I agree we definitely need more members.

[Maya]

I've actually noticed that games having "laxer" rules, while giving members the option of how realistic they want to be (ie they can choose to have the foal now and pay, or wait 11 months and not -- or speedage and pay, or not) actually tend to have an older member base as opposed to games that are either really strict or really unstructured. I've kind of been exploring lol. The most active and popular game in sim right now is definitely Impulsion -- they have an average member age of around 20 and huge amounts of activity, and they are really only different from BITS rules-wise in the 3 or 4 areas discussed above (breeding, speedaging, stable wait times, and mandatory tack/feed). The mature and active players seem to absolutely FLOCK to Impulsion, and from polls throughout sim, the general consensus was that this is due to players being able to choose for themselves how realistic they want to be. I definitely agree that associations like the BSBR would be hurt by speedaging and that they are definitely within their rights to say that any horse who has been speedaged can't compete or be registered. And if people don't like it, they can simply choose not to be involved in stock horses -- their loss, right? Oh, and also -- it will make older stock horses more desireable in the long run, as people (especially new members) won't want to wait to be able to show young foals. Won't change right away, but eventually there will be a bigger demand for older horses, which will totally help the buying/selling economy which quite frankly kind of sucks right now lol.

I'm thinking that giving members that option might make the game more appealing. That way, people who want to be and can be totally realistic can stick to their full year gestation, no speed aging, etc; while those who either don't want to or don't have the time to or whatever can do things their way -- and neither group would be forced to conform to the other's way of doing things, you know? lol.

Oh, and also keep in mind that applicants are screened when they submit joining forms -- anyone under 16 needs to submit an exceptionally mature and well-thought out form in order for me to approve them. Well, people over 16, too, but younger members even more so.

What else... Rainbow -- that's exactly what I was thinking with eliminating the stable wait time. I've seen this method used in other games (ISG, for one), and it forces the new members to be extremely active, hosting/entering shows, looking for work so they can get paid by other members (making websites or whathaveyou), etc.

I also agree with the simple and easy to understand limits and restrictions -- perhaps horses can only be speedaged:
-once in their lives
-only to a year that doesn't interfere with other foals by the dam, and keeps them 3 years younger than both parents
-plus you'd have to pay a fee

And on the topic of where money goes -- it's kind of a two part idea. Firstly, the Bank and BRC Co is where the BITS Show Fund gets it's money when people request money for show prizes (which people don't do too often!), and where monthly salaries come from, and the payment to people who help wth activity checks, etc. It also helps prevent inflation by 'removing' money from circulation. It doesn't really disappear, but it's only used when needed. I can put that in the FAQ when I redo it -- it would definitely help clarify.

Associations can totally apply for show funding and year end prizes and stuff if their registration and entry fees can't cover it -- The url for the BITS Show Fund is here:
missrightwing.com/showme/bsf.html
and you just need to contact Gwen about it!

What else have I missed... I'm sure something, but I can't think of it at the moment. lol. Still tired. >.< Basically -- I love how realistic BITS is and I definitely don't want to see that change -- but also, I don't want to see the game shrink to like 5 members and not be able to attract any more because of how realistic it is >.< That would be very bad LOL.

[Gwen]

All very good points, Maya. I did look at impulsion and had no idea. You have done your research. I think you are right about the realism alone. That is what hurt TROT and I don't want it to be like TROT at all.

I never looked at it as an economic argument. I am just worried that there will no longer be foals or young jumpers or futurity horses. That just is not good. And yeah, the individual can chose to not be involved. I don't think it would be bad (speed aging) for dressage or eventing, etc because we NEED horses to get involved in the higher level stuff, but that is just not how stock breed stuff works. I like that we will be able to choose what to do.

[Rainbow]

Wow, Maya, you really did your research lol. I am well aware of how active and well-liked Impulsion is, and if these are the reasons that we're not like Impulsion, it's perhaps time for a change. I must admit that I had forgotten about the screening of new members (hell, when this game started, I was fourteen) -- preventing an influx of "lolz i wanna spedage my horsie but u wont let me this gaem isstupid" members was definitely a concern of mine.

Also, I will most likely never speed-age or take advantage of the lack of the 11-month gestation period, regardless of rule changes. Personally, the Young Jumper classes are some of my favorite to compete in with my sim horses. I'm trying to build up WEC in that area. I also enjoy the young horses in dressage and hunters.

I also agree with everyone in terms of allowing associations to make their own rules with regards to speed-aging -- just like some breed associations do not allow embryo-transfer, some of our associations can disallow speed-aging.

This is just a random idea (I'm getting sleepy and have not had a cup of tea yet this evening -- I need my tea to function!), but perhaps we could offer a slight incentive to members who did not speed-age or "insta-foal"? I'm not saying thousands of dollars or anything, just a small amount. Perhaps in December of each year, any member who did not speed-age or "insta-foal" at all that year could receive $1000 or something, while members who did would not receive anything other than the benefits from speed-aging and/or "insta-foaling." Again, this is a totally random idea -- just thought I'd put it out there.

Also, I just wanted to commend everyone for the excellent and mature discussion. It's one of the things I love about this game!

[Shelly]

I honestly will leave BITS if we become like Impulsion. I love how the Thoroughbreds have the hand here, not Arabians (sorry Nicole!). I'm 100% glad that BITS is not connected to All-Sim in any way. Once you get into All-Sim, you'll start getting people who wont listen to the rules because they probably never had more rules than 'no fighting in the public'. Im sure BITS will not become Impulsion, and Im sure that as long as we have an active racing field Thoroughbreds will stay on top and be the number one registered breed.

I think, though, for the sake of the game, letting people choose their levels of realism would benefit the game. If you screen everyone properly, and make sure they have the right experince, then we should be OK. If they choose to be impatient, then let they waste their money in speedinging and "insta-foaling". If they choose to be patient, wait out the 11 months and not speedage, then there should be rewards, as Rainbow said.

I agree with Rainbow and Gwen. Each association can make it's own descision about speedaging. I for one, especially in my racehorses, take pride in letting them win their maidens, win some allowances, and then hit the trail for the graded races, and love watching them do so. My foals tantalize me, but I love watching them too, and I'll take especial pride in my bred foals when they hit the track next year.

[Maya]

Regardless of if speedaging as allowed or not, it won't affect how horses progress through the levels -- it's still not realistic to start a racehorse in stakes races, or a dressage horse in grand prix.

And actually, BITS has always allowed interaction with All-Sim... so I'm not sure what you mean. lol.

When I talk about Impulsion -- I'm not referring at all to the fact that Arabians are popular there. That's not what makes the game so popular... just like if all of a sudden we made Arabians the most popular breed here, it wouldn't automatically make BITS the most popular game on the internet. It's all the other stuff I've discussed. Breed popularity does not ever make or break a game's popularity.

I agree with your second paragraph, lol, but I honestly don't really know what you're talking about in the other 2 >.< LOL.

[Shelly]

lol I rambled on a bit. I know you werent talking about breed popularity, but Im saying that if BITS ever falls to the snotty arabian people from All Sim, then I'll yell 'I cant believe you' and leave in a huff... though if that happens in the next million of years I'll give you every cent I have...

Speed aging, in a way, can effect how a horse runs. You have a two year old, for example. In 2007 you race the two year old in January, February, and March in maidens and allowances. And then you speed age one year, so now you have a three year old, and enter them in the Crown. In a way I think that'll interrupt the cycle. I dont get people who have to have horses racing in stakes. I have a large string, so I have horses everywhere, and yes, most of them are graded runners only because i've had them for a while, or i imported them and they've already ran in maidens + allowances in the all sim.

The interaction, before you've suggested people to create a different stable for all sim showing. Now, you're changing it so people can show but the records mean pretty much nothing. I like this. Now, if you were to open all sim up to the same level as BITS shows... *shudders* Some associations + shows + races out there are so unrealistic, and no one cares that a three year old cant jump 5' fences. They do it anyways.

Lol. The more I try to explain, the more I fail to explain... if that made sense haha

[Maya]

lol, no, now I understand what you are saying

Any all-sim records will be screened before going into the database... I can't stop people from recording those results, but if they aren't in the database, they won't be 'official', if that makes sense.

And yes, people could age racehorses, that way, but I'm pretty sure the BJC would introduce a rule saying that a horse could only run at one age per year... so if people really wanted they could speedage weanlings to two year olds immediately, but that two year old could ONLY run in 2yo races until the next calendar year. Make sense?

[Gwen]

I agree that mature discussions are the best thing about the board. haha. No one is backstabbing or pissing someone off. In fact the people that have come on here for that reason are no longer here, so we are doing a good job, I think.

I honestly don't think (with all the reading of this topic) that speed aging is going to effect people all that much. I am not that crazy about the idea, but it doesn't seem like anyone here is going to go nuts, you know?

[Nicole]

I know I haven't commented or added anything to this discussion, but I have been actively reading it and have popped some of my ideas/thoughts to Maya on IM

Personally, I'm not sure where I stand. I, just like the rest of you, want to keep the game as realistic as possible, but I feel there are to many impatient people out there to keep BITS as it is. It's a sad fact, but true. I'm against speed-aging, but if it can help the game, then I'm willing to let others do it.

Actually it seems like none of us 'original' members are going to do any of the proposed things =P Hopefully a lot of members who join will feel the same

I bet I sound like a broken record repeating what all of you have said =P Just wanted you to know that I AM here and I AM reading

[Shelly]

Jul 21, 2008 22:54:18 GMT -5 Gwen said:

I agree that mature discussions are the best thing about the board. haha. No one is backstabbing or pissing someone off. In fact the people that have come on here for that reason are no longer here, so we are doing a good job, I think.

I agree with that statement, Gwen.

Maya - Yup, I get you. Since speed aging would only be allowed once, they'd be aged to two and then have to age yearly like any other horse. Right? That could mess up some of the future foal crops, but I know I'll be one that breeds horses and watches them grow and pats them on the back as a two year old after watching them race, knowing that I did all I could to help them there... and hopefully 'there' is the winner's circle in one years time... geeze, I have yearlings already! haha.

And Nicole, I agree. The 'original' members, those that have been here longer, will probably not speed age. It would help, though, to have that option available, because yes there is impatient people out there that are probably turned off BITS by having to wait years on end to show a homebred foal.

[Maya]

Ok -- if anyone else has any opinions or thoughts, please speak up! I'll let the discussion continue for another few days, and then we will lock ourselves in a sealed room for several days and deliberate on a decision.

[Rainbow]

Can we have smoke, like the Vatican does while they're deciding on a pope?!

[Maya]

YES.

[Gwen]

Haha. That made me laugh. A LOT.

[Rainbow]

Awesome.

[Elise]

Woohoo! Lots of discussion in the last four days on this. I think everybody's brought up great points, and I can see where everyone is coming from when they say that speed aging/shorter gestation periods.

These are just some of the things I came up with (so I don't just repeat myself and annoy you all since you know that I am for both things)

- don't make fees for speeding/removing the gestation period too high pretty please. I know it would help keep people (like myself) away from it, but it might get kind of expensive for people if they are intending to focus on breeding, but yet not wait so long for the foal... it might get expensive.

- should there be a rule that horses that have had a foal cannot be speed aged?

I know you guys will make a good decision, you always have in the past I tried out Volte this winter when things were so slow with Bits, and I HATED it! Nobody really welcomed you the way we do... people are just so much more friendly here. And the training system... you can't move your horse up a level until they have had three wins in the previous division. It might be alright if there weren't a bazillion horses in the intro/training levels. *sighs* I <3 you guys!!!

[Christie]

Wooh, that all took me awhile to read haha. I don't think I have anything too much to add, but I think making changes in BITS would be an exciting way for the game to evolve...not to change, but to just go through natural growth that will make it even stronger and better.

I would agree with Elise though, don't go over the top with the fees for speed aging and foaling. I don't think I'd use the speed aging option but maybe once in a blue moon, but I know that the gestation period is a huge reason that I personally have such a nonexistant breeding program. It's nice that it's realistic, but realism can be taken too far -- since I focus mainly on eventers, I would be waiting around 5 RL years to see a foal of mine actually make it to competition (over fences that is, not prospect classes obviously). I definatly plan on being here in 5 years if BITS is still around, which I'm sure it will be, but that really doesn't give me much incentive at all to develop that side of my establishment. I'm not paticularly for instant foaling, but a shorter period of three months to six months I feel would really help boost that side of the game. So perhaps levels of fees, so that it costs more for an actual instant foal, but less of a fee for waiting a few months?

Just a thought, other than that I don't really have much new to add, except that I think requiring tack and feed would be a great addition as long as a system was in place that made it less time consuming to check that members are following this, which it sounds like you were working on Maya. If we had an easy system, then I think requiring this would bring another aspect of realism to the game that wouldn't be too difficult to monitor, and I don't think it would scare away potential members. Just a mention about Shelly's idea of tack package, I personally wouldn't want to use them, but I would be more than willing to revamp Nickerdoodles and offer packages like that. For me, I love tack shopping in sims, its like I'm a rich person for a day and I can go buy saddles that I'd never be able to afford in real life, and I shop around and pick specific things based on my horses Just a silly thing I do haha. But this actually reminds me that I've let Nickerdoodles fall into complete disrepair, I'm going to get working on updating the site and offering more tack packages

I love everyone's discussion of ideas on here, it's so nice that y'all (the admin team) care about all the member's theories and perspectives on the rule changes, and I know y'all really do take into account what we think. I agree with Elise, we all heart y'all!